The following posts and comments were recovered from previous versions of the blog and compiled to save republishing them individually, since they deal with the same subject. Whereas the platform makes less of an impact nowadays, the disciples of this mentality are increasingly numerous.
Psychopath Free: Behind the Mask of Empathy
As the self-proclaimed largest forum for victims of narcissistic, psychopathic and sociopathic abuse, PF sees a handful of new registrations daily, as more people suspect they are enmeshed with disordered types. Their doors are wide open; registration is easy; it only takes a few minutes.
At first glance, you are greeted by an amazing uniformity of opinion; you tell yourself it’s because they’re all so sensitive, so considerate towards each other (the reality being you can find yourself labelled a troll for breathing out the wrong amount of CO2; long time members have learned not to ever disagree with the status quo).
You stumble in there as if you’d found an oasis in the desert; you cannot believe how lucky you are to have come across so many people with a similar experience. Encouraged by the general eagerness to discuss painful memories, you start sharing yours almost immediately, thinking you have found the most open, honest group ever.
Above all, you assume they know you are hurt and confused, in need of support, as they claim to have designed the website for people like you. You assume they will treat you as such; that they will always be considerate.
Unfortunately, they promote themselves in a completely false manner, drawing naive and vulnerable people into their game of delusional paranoia.
While you see members liking each other’s posts by the dozen, sending “hugs” and behaving like good old friends, always willing to lend an ear, some lend an ear so well they hear what you’re not even saying, as shown here:
“Reporting Sketchy Members
Just wanted to write a quick notice about the safety culture we want to cultivate here.
If you ever have any suspicions about a member, our policy is “better reported than not”. A huge part of the healing process is learning to trust your intuition. Here at PF, just like everywhere else in life, you are going to continue to encounter toxic people.
You should never brush aside your gut feeling about someone, as that’s how we end up “dancing the dance”, when really the person should just be shown the door. So please if you ever feel uneasy about a member, do not hesitate to use our reporting features to tell us. Because if you’re feeling suspicious, the odds are you’re not alone.
You will never be punished or judged for reporting someone who turns out to be genuine. We take all reports seriously. Mistakes happen, although I honestly have never seen this. Member reports are usually 100% on board with our own suspicions. Please understand that safety is always being assessed here, even if it’s not visible. Even if you see a thread going on where you can’t believe the member hasn’t been banned yet. Trust me, they are on our radar.
There are several ways to report a member. Please use them:
Under every post, you will see a little triangle with an exclamation point. This reports the specific post and member, completely unknown to them. The reference to the post will also help us pinpoint any specific things they said.
The Contact Form here: http://psychopathfree.com/sendmessage.php – Check “Troll Suspect” for the category, and it will be looked at immediately. Using this method, you can also log out and report anonymously. It is helpful to have any specific post references if you do this. Again, remember that you will never be judged for reports, but I do understand the desire for anonymity when it comes to security.
PMing an administrator. If you have a good friendship with an admin, please feel free to send along a personal message. It will be brought to the team either anonymously or with your endorsement, whatever you ask for. The process will always be dealt with in the same way
I really hope this helps to encourage an open-door philosophy when it comes to trolls. You are not crazy”
That’s right. You actually read that. On a support forum claiming to be the world leader in its field.
Members are encouraged to report each other on a “gut feeling”, without any proof their target has broken a single rule – which is probably unprecedented on any serious forum. That is how people are targeted and closely watched without having shown any maliciousness whatsoever.
Indeed, you are not crazy, but you are definitely an asshole if you engage in his sort of practice, as any false accuser is.
It is unacceptable for any bona fide person to become fodder for older members’ exercise of good intuition and be subjected to the abstract version of a vivisection while knowing nothing about it.
Under that veneer of safety and brotherhood lie several layers of obsessive distrust, which come before any concern of treating people fairly – not to mention being careful with someone who is emotionally frail.
In case you think the admin’s intentions should be given the benefit of the doubt and might be in the lines of being overprotective, here’s another gem:
People with ulterior motives & agendas can be hard to spot, but there are signs – for example, they do not seem to actually care about the well-being of other members, and instead come across as a bit fake, self-centered, and emotionally disconnected. You will notice EVERY topic always comes back to a lengthy, exhausting story about “My P”, even if the topic has nothing to do with them.
Trust your gut, always. Most of us already learned this lesson the hard way.
And use the report button! There’s one at the bottom of every PM, as well as posts (the little triangle with !). It’s SO fast & easy, and automatically shoots an email to every Admin so we can review it immediately, even if we are not on PF (which is more common for me now that I’m at work). There is absolutely zero penalty or grudge for a false red flag. It takes two seconds to review them, and I would rather get 10 in a day than 0. Reports are GOOD. We do our best to keep up, but with 20,000+ posts, we need to rely on our your intuition as well.
And yet another gem…
I would also like to thank the administrators and moderators who work around the clock to keep this site so safe, secure, and free from drama/gurus/know-it-alls/predators. I see the members of this team as gatekeepers, absorbing the daily poison, lies, manipulation, and lunacy, in order to maintain the peaceful harmony that we all get to wake up to each morning. To give you an idea of just how hard they work, there are more security reports from the past three months, than there are threads in The Cafe since 2011. They don’t just clean things up, they are responsible for setting and maintaining the amazing atmosphere that I have come to love so much here on PF. These people never give up, and they never ask for any sort of recognition. So I would like to recognize them now, because this forum would be nothing without them.
Yes, you read that also. Your eyes are not playing some twisted trick on you.
This is on a thread celebrating the forum’s great success. The emphasis belongs to the admin, who is so proud of the humongous number of reports, most of which were obviously false, since they still have a community there. More reports in three months than threads on a sub-forum in two years. And he boasts about it; he finds it wonderful that his forum is the online version of North Korea. And then he claims other people have control issues.
Back to this quote:
I see the members of this team as gatekeepers, absorbing the daily poison, lies, manipulation, and lunacy, in order to maintain the peaceful harmony that we all get to wake up to each morning. (…) they are responsible for setting and maintaining the amazing atmosphere that I have come to love so much here on PF.
Have you ever read anything more insane? An “amazing atmosphere” actively dominated by security reports? A “peaceful harmony” and simultaneously, daily poison, manipulation, lunacy? Daily? It reminds me of Scientology’s leader, who reportedly thinks Scientology is amazing while 75% of the people in it are rotten.
Imagine you are a distraught person seeking company and advice, and while you continue to pour your heart out to these people, your witch trial is going on behind your back. You have an anointed bunch with the above-shown insight into human behaviour (way below sea level, as you can plainly see) trying to determine if you:
- Seem to care too little about the wellbeing of others;
- Seem to care too much about the wellbeing of others (contacting them directly is a no-no and for new members all communication must be public, or it can easily be labelled harassment; personal questions should also be avoided);
- Post too much about your problem (which means you are self-centred);
- Post too little about your problem (maybe you have an ulterior motive for being there, such as studying others);
- Post too little (they are always suspicious of members with a very small post count);
- Post too much (they tell you that you are flooding);
- Seem emotionally detached;
- Seem too emotionally involved in what is being posted (you’re coming on too strong and that is suspicious).
And so forth.
They actually think they have the ability to get inside your head and read emotions you are not expressing, or the lack thereof. That is how delusional and irrational they are.
Does anyone else find it sick that he would rather get piles of false reports than get none, and he encourages reporting so enthusiastically (almost frantically), which is guaranteed to make targets out of innocent people? Is there any doubt at all regarding what new members really get themselves into?
You are guilty until proven innocent and those who accuse you are always unaccountable, to the point of not having to reveal their online identities when they emit their accusations. As their target, you will not be given a warning – as in stop trusting us as we don’t trust you, an explanation or an apology.
Sometimes, members are banned without an apparent reason and cannot figure out why, since they were never confronted by staff; they are perplexed, having had no idea anything was wrong. They never had a chance to clear others’ doubts, defend themselves or leave peacefully of their own accord, after deleting their information.
Apparently, staff members don’t feel they need to confront you or be transparent in any way; they list you as a potential troll on a mere suspicion and block you immediately, as if your mere presence on the website for an added hour to allow a discussion posed some sort of danger to them. That is the sheer level of their paranoia.
I trust hardly anyone would register if those announcements were added to the forum rules, or better yet, to their plethora of promotional materials, which read like exquisite corporate PR.
Usually though, one is banned for some laughable trifle no sane adult would find threatening from another – after having poured their heart out before them as one would before a close friend or therapist, for days, weeks or many months.
I lack the vocabulary to properly word how duplicitous, insensitive and disgusting that is. Not to mention unprofessional.
This Amazon review of the book and forum is very telling, as are the comments former members have posted there.
It is then – and often, unfortunately, only then – that wronged members take to the internet to investigate this so-called support group which shows no ethics, no transparency, no fairness and little sanity when targeting someone. They look for a different space online to tell their story. Alternatively, they register again or email for an explanation. They want closure and a chance to express their completely understandable frustration.
Congratulations! They are now officially a troll.
You see, in their minds, the road from an abuse victim in need to a troll who is frothing at the mouth with venom and envy towards their fine establishment can be a very short one. Trolls are fair game for vicious attacks on their character and misuse of the information they entrusted the blessed “recovery forum” with.
A person who has gone through the motions I described above is then insulted again to read threads where the admin boasts about “keeping the creeps out” and “not taking their BS” and “keeping a peaceful and loving atmosphere”, as well as refusing to delete people’s very sensitive information because they were labelled as such.
Didn’t I hear someone say psychopaths deliberately provoke intense emotional reactions in normal people, only to ridicule them before others by calling them crazy and hysterical…? Oh yes, it was them.
The only place where paranoia, unfounded reporting, control and swift discarding equal love and support is a cult. Which is exactly what they resemble.
If you somehow come across this blog, chances are you are familiar with all the above, so please feel free to post your thoughts and experiences. My intention is to not censor anything. However, please try not to refer to the personal lives of the people involved in that forum, to stay on the safe and decent side. There is plenty to be discussed regarding the forum itself and its policies.
“Amazing information! I’m clearly dealing with a psycho…”
September 16, 2015
How many times have you read that, or even written it, while participating in discussions on a popular abuse recovery forum? The most compelling evidence in one’s eyes (that the person they suspect to be disordered actually is that way) is the plethora of similar experiences posted by others.
As a first disclaimer, I am referring to those who are in doubt, usually when no deliberate, serious acts of cruelty have taken place. Many stumble upon unprofessional information which is very articulate and convincing, yet deep down, intuition tells them they are wrong or that they need to reevaluate matters.
Also, I’m not trying to minimise anyone’s feelings or experience; however, I have serious doubts every case on these large recovery forums involves a genuine psychopath or narcissist. In a vulnerable state, with clever persuasion, mistakes are easily made.
As a second disclaimer, this is only my opinion.
The following issues to consider can be liberating for someone still pondering whether that label is accurate.
1.The fact that members were mistreated in similar ways is not proof they were all mistreated by psychopaths. This is especially valid when it comes to what is deemed emotional abuse.
Not all people who engage in aggressive or abusive behavior are disordered; there are dozens of variables in analysing why a person might have behaved in a certain way. Even though you find yourself repeatedly thinking “mine did that all the time”, keep in mind similarities can occur with normal people as well. Lying, making unflattering comments, using sarcasm, making excuses, being selfish, being arrogant are things most of us are guilty of at some point in life.
2. The way one feels about another person is not necessarily provoked by the latter.
I believe few people have strong telepathic abilities; most need straightforward communication to understand how one is feeling; even then they can remain disconnected, especially if they are emotionally unavailable for some reason. Reciprocity is an illusion in many cases, unless there is proper communication. The lack of it (two people relating to each other through endless assumptions and signal interpretation) weakens bonds; it pulls people apart. Those who are shy, oversensitive, have anxiety issues etc. find it hard to express their feelings; they can experience great frustration with others. Also, one can feel anxious around a person without that person causing their anxiety or even being aware of it.
3. Aggressive or abusive behaviour often has more to do with the person engaging in it than the person they target. As opposed to the message people get on PF for instance, that a psycho is bent on destroying them.
I dare assume at some point in life we’ve all been shouted at by angry people just because we were there. Also, some feel too safe at times and take others for granted, as a teenager does when acting up, knowing they won’t lose their family over it. I am in no way justifying abuse – I am merely saying not every case is the same and not every person is the same; hence there are many possible explanations for aggressiveness (blatant or passive) . “This individual is bent on destroying you” is the exception, not the rule.
4. Psychopaths lack empathy and remorse. Calling them offensive or big-headed is the understatement of the century.
For a sample of excellent candidates for that “title”, read the comments under any Daily Mail article dealing with poverty or immigration. You’ll find chilling fantasies of opening fire on refugee boats or rounding up the poor to sterilise them. You’ll find acrimonious anti-immigration rhetoric under pictures of dead children, which fail to move any of these types. People often wonder how in the world mass killings such as the Holocaust, the extermination of a large part of Cambodia’s population or the massacre in Rwanda happened. Some people simply don’t see others as human. That murderous instinct hasn’t gone away and never will, I suppose, though we lie to ourselves we have evolved as a species.
There are also public figures with a considerable platform, such as university professors, who advocate monstrosities; what jumps to mind is referred to as “after birth abortion”, or the possibility for parents to change their mind about wanting an already born child. Peter Singer argues that in case of disability, they should have up to thirty days to decide if they want to keep it, as people refer to children nowadays. If not, the it would be mercifully put to sleep, I suppose. Then there is Eric Pianka, who has another type of utopia in mind – the ideal world population, he says, would be a tenth of the actual one; it is therefore necessary to get rid of the other 90%. Not to mention an individual I won’t even name, who proposed during a widely followed TV debate that abortion should be mandatory for thirty years. And he wasn’t just saying that for shock value.
Then you have the SJW bloodhounds who ruin – not an overstatement – people for disagreeing with them on issues of faith or family values. Under the guise of promoting marriage equality, they target, trick and break those who won’t give up their traditionalist views, making examples out of them to frighten others. They put hard-working families out of business; they gladly take old people’s savings as compensation for having been offended. The greater the misery and suffering they cause, including to children or helpless elderly people, the greater their satisfaction.
You contemplate such individuals and suddenly, the guy who keeps forgetting your birthdays, changes his plans too much, avoids house chores or annoys you with his quirks seems less of a psychopath by the second.
5. And then there is the world. An unstable, often depressing world where the future is shaky if not bleak; where values regarding human interaction have long been turned upside-down, to let confusion reign free. Here is a short list of contradictions between what we grow up to expect from people and the factors moulding us all nowadays:
–We expect sensitivity in a desensitised world, where human suffering has become entertainment;
–We expect not to be sexually objectified in a world where porn and objectification can be seen around every corner, hence kids grow up thinking it’s a normal part of life;
–We expect stability, perseverance, work ethics in an economically unstable climate, where one’s efforts can be fruitless, causing a lack of motivation;
–We expect commitment, faithfulness, when all around us marriages are breaking, people publicly debate the validity of monogamy and the family as a unit seems to be falling apart;
–We want constant respect in an angry world, where people lose their temper with innocent strangers, where they lash out at each other for the smallest trifles; men and women want respect from each other while under peer pressure they ridicule the opposite sex for a few cheap laughs;
–We expect others to know us and know what we are feeling when so many of us barely know ourselves; life is often so depressing we turn to therapy and medication to be able to function;
–We expect maturity when all around us adults behave like children or teenagers in older bodies, in a hedonistic culture of endless fun and games;
–We expect love in romantic relationships, when fewer people have a clear idea of what that is anymore and where it’s supposed to lead, courtesy of our blessed culture of infinite possibilities, leaving many so confused they no longer know what they want.
These are only a few of the reasons why people should think twice about equating selfishness, occasional nastiness and frustrating behavioural patterns with psychopathy. People are complicated.
COMMENTS
Stefan
Yes, my father is complicated. That’s all. He’s not a psychopath, he is just who he is. NO, he is a psychopath. It took me 46 years to find out. He is not only A complicated person, he is a monster.SEPTEMBER 16, 2015
Maria
You might have noticed I didn’t refer to all cases there; of course there are genuine ones.There are also many members who are not sure, are struggling with a relationship and go to forums for validation. Out of the entire list of behaviours they choose some which don’t represent definite proof.
Please don’t take things so personally.
SEPTEMBER 17, 2015
Maria
People who have dealt with real psychopaths are probably more at risk than others to be affected negatively by participating in those forums.It makes sense that if ”experts” like those on PF see a psychopath in everything that moves, they have no idea how to accurately identify one, so they can’t help anyone in that situation; all they can do is mislead.
I’m sorry you felt offended by the blog post; as I said, it only referred to those uncertain cases. The vast majority from what I’ve seen are women who can’t understand the behaviour of their partners or ex’s; they are greeted by a choir of voices pushing them in that direction.
SEPTEMBER 17, 2015
Sandra
YES!!! to this whole analysis. We have the Hare checklist and the Stout book, and we know in the depths of our being if we have been in the midst of these monsters, Stefan. We know. Yet what most of these online forums are doing is making cases for distraught people that whoever has hurt them can be twisted and bent and molded in little ways to fit the description of psychopath. Mass hysteria works like that, and then you start to project your skewed view and analysis about human behavior onto everyone you come in contact with. If one of the moderators on these sites advocates no contact and there are cyber accolades and parties praising you for your efforts, that’s just added justification that you are successfully identifying psychopaths lurking at every corner, and you must continue to avoid them at all cost to get your mental state back to normal. It’s preservation of self.What I’ve learned to do, after pulling myself away from the PF isolation-culture, is to find resources and experts that are focusing on difficult personality traits and teaching skills on how to deal with this in families, homes and the work place. We live in a scary world.
SEPTEMBER 16, 2015
Psychopath Free And The Cringe Factor
Recently, an excerpt from Psychopath Free was added to its Amazon page (quotes are reproduced here from the website, for non-commercial educational purposes, thus qualifying as fair use). Whilst the entire text screams improvisation and if one properly analyses it they can be sure to find more than a dozen logical errors, the worst parts lie below.
To use their terminology of choice, I might as well class this as triggering to former members of the forum, in good humour of course.
As you frantically share your story, you latch on to the quickest and most sympathetic ear—anyone who claims to understand you. The problem is, these people do not always have your best interests at heart.
Those willing to listen to your psychopathic story for hours on end are, unfortunately, not likely to be people who are truly invested in your recovery. They are most likely “vultures.”
Vultures often seem exceptionally kind and warm at first. They want to fix you and absorb your problems. They are fascinated by your struggles. But sooner or later, you will find yourself lost in another nightmare. They begin drowning you in unsolicited advice. They need constant praise and attention. You are never allowed to disagree with them. They feed off drama and an insatiable need to be appreciated by others. (…)
They do not want you to seek help from anyone except them.
Whether these people are pathological or not, you don’t need this toxic garbage after what you’ve been through. (………)
But real friends won’t be acting as your therapist, and they definitely won’t be rambling on about their ability to empathize and care. Their actions should speak louder than their words.
It takes a long time to start building healthier relationships. It takes breaking old habits, forming new ones, developing your intuition, and finally coming to understand what it is that you want from this world.
So be on the lookout for vultures. In the writing world, there’s a universal rule called “show—don’t tell.” This rule also applies to people. If you encounter someone who’s constantly telling you who they are, how much they want to help you, how they will make things right for you, take a step back and look at their actual behavior. Manipulative people are always “telling” because they have nothing good to show. Their inappropriate and dishonest actions never actually match up with their promising words, causing an overwhelming cognitive dissonance in the people who trust them.
You will find that decent, humble human beings aren’t trying to tell you who they are and what they can do for you. They simply show it through consistent love and kindness. You never need to question them, because their intentions are always pure. Vultures, on the other hand, are really acting out of self-interest; they want to be praised and adored. In an argument, a “teller” will frequently remind you of how well they treat you, even after blatantly hurting you. A “show-er” will simply share their point of view without trying to twist the conversation in their favor. Avoid those who tell you how nice they are, how generous they are, how successful they are, how honest they are, and how important they are. Instead, search for the quiet ones who show these qualities every day through their actions.
Truly cringe-worthy.
No explanation is needed for those who have been given the PF treatment and know what really goes on there, openly and behind the scenes.
When referring to “vultures”, he is describing the behaviour of the Psychopath Free team to a tee. Not only do they claim to empathise with vulnerable people they couldn’t care less about (as shown on countless occasions); they behave as if those strangers owed them for their brainwashing support; they constantly display controlling, egomaniacal and patronising tendencies.
Whilst behaving in that fashion towards one individual is bad enough, they do so to thousands of people, processing members more diligently than fast food chains process battery farm chickens.
I would strongly urge all survivors to avoid seeking out new friendships and relationships for at least a few months. You must get to the point where you no longer need—or want—to talk about your abuser anymore.
When you do need help, stick to professional therapy or recovery communities and services. These people know what you’ve been through, and you’re going to find that all of them are willing to help—with no strings attached.
I understand the temptation to go out and meet new people. You’re looking to start rebuilding your life. You want to surround yourself with kinder and more genuine friends.
Let me get this straight.
He argues there is a fundamental difference between finding new friends in real life and confiding in strangers on-line, which is what people do in these so-called recovery communities. He places these groups on par with seeing an actual therapist. Not that a therapist is necessarily able to help a hurting soul; regardless, they are guaranteed to be more mindful of their behaviour, as to not leave that person in a worse condition than their original one. They are guaranteed to have more ethics than those who risk nothing when bullying or discarding a vulnerable person on the internet.
No strings attached is a funny one. Let’s see if these qualify as “strings”, aka, in my understanding, issues the group can use in order to manipulate someone into obedience.
- Tracking members on-line as well as in real life, if they see fit, violating their privacy.
- Bullying and shaming members to influence their decisions in real life, as opposed to merely providing information.
- Mandating that in order to participate in simple discussions one has to break all contact with the person who has (presumably) been abusing them, although that rule is not specified when registering.
- Insisting that members give accurate information regarding their relationships and seeing prospective lies or omissions (again, about the private lives of others) as “security threats” to the forum, posed by “imposters”.
- Labelling others with variations of ASPD, though they usually skip that part and call them psychopaths directly, to refute their arguments.
- Mocking members’ sensitive stories in kangaroo courts, using vile language, after having expressed “sincere” empathy for them.
Make no mistake; these people are dangerous.
You register under the impression of posting anonymously, only disclosing what you see fit and being able to leave whenever, which is when a normal forum admin or moderator would cease all interaction with you. That was the whole point of being able to open up on the internet.
If you lived outside the US, were temporarily part of a group like PF, and one day posted about feeling extremely low – as people sometimes do in order to blow off steam – you would think that merely closing the window in your browser was the end of it. Well, guess again. They once tracked down a member from a different country and alerted the police regarding a suicide related post, causing substantial trouble in her life and custody case.
Imagine bringing that on yourself just by clicking “post” on a foreign internet forum. Imagine the absurdity.
So when you feel those things after a relationship, does it really matter if your ex was a psychopath, a sociopath, a narcissist, or a garden-variety jerk? The label doesn’t make your feelings any more or less valid. Your feelings are absolutes. They will endure, no matter which word you settle upon.
YES, it does matter.
Psychopathy is a personality disorder. Being a jerk is a behavioural problem, which needn’t be permanent or affect all sides of an individual’s life. It matters even more in terms of discussing your story on forums based on psychopathy, where the constant use of the word psychopath is encouraged.
There I was thinking the whole “identify the psycho” technique was meant to be accurate; that it was crucial for a “survivor” to apply it correctly. Now we see that the label is just fluff and it’s OK to confuse someone who is a bit of a dick with a deranged, dangerous individual. Pick whatever you want; it’s all the same.
And it certainly matters when you place the word “psychopath” on the cover of your book and market it as such, although it now appears it addresses a much wider audience, some cases having nothing to do with psychopathy whatsoever.
And if you are anything like me, we can agree on this simple truth: good people make you feel good and bad people make you feel bad.
Yup. Never heard that one before. Certainly not in George Orwell’s Animal Farm, when the sheep would go ‘‘Four legs good, two legs bad! Four legs good, two legs bad!”
This oversimplification is baffling, really.
The fact that the book mentions it doesn’t solely address victims of genuine psychopaths but people who have been hurt in general is very telling; however, those who read it and join PF end up using the words psychopathand narcissist by default.
I might be biased—actually, I definitely am—but I think PsychopathFree.com has one of the coolest healing processes out there. We believe in education, open dialogue, validation, and self-discovery. We have a uniquely inspiring user base, full of resilient values and honest friendships.
I’m not sure whether to laugh or cry. Laughing is generally healthier. The only thing open about the place is the back door, through which they constantly (and abruptly) shove others. Many compare the way one relates to the forum to a toxic relationship; by the time you get doubts and want to confront the establishment or leave, you have too much invested already, as they know your details and intimate story, hence you choose to stay on their good side and not draw attention to yourself.
It’s a funny world, isn’t it? We have doctors who kill for a living and key people in corporations working with governing bodies who are supposed to regulate their practice. And we have people with awful ethics writing books about human interaction.
Here is a real gem:
But first, you’ll need to forget everything you thought you knew about people. Understanding psychopathy requires letting go of your basic emotional instincts. Remember, these are people who prey on forgiveness. They thrive on your need for closure. They manipulate compassion and exploit sympathy.
And they’re surprised people keep comparing them to a cult…
LATER EDIT
After some pondering, I figured posting the conversation I came across accidentally makes sense in order to warn others, with all precautions taken to hide the details of everyone involved (aside from an admin as the way an admin behaves is quite important).
As mentioned in my comment below, a relatively new member questioned the status quo, politely saying he would prefer a quick solution rather than months or years of analysing the difficult relationship. He named the thread ”Our own obsession”. Nothing unusual – unless you’re a devout PF member, reacting to every word with suspicion. Here is what happened next:
Still on the good enough side, pretending to try to be helpful, though notice the tone. I covered a few lines giving details of the OP’s personal situation.
Notice here the “WE”/ “OUR”, which the OP had been jumped for, is kosher when used by an experienced forum member. Hence while the member felt outraged she was being included into the OP’s “our own obsession”, he should be fine with the “we can be toxic to other people”.
The new member needs to understand the following:
-He has found the ultimate experts in the book and forum. Doubting them is like questioning evolution. He is not on the site to share his views in an equal environment, but to be told what to do.
-The experts know better than he does how long his recovery is supposed to last, even though the human mind is the land of all possibilities. He has to accept the fact that he’ll be suffering for a year or more; arguing otherwise is like arguing pigs can fly. Imagine the fucking nerve, telling someone what they are supposed to feel and for how long, and discouraging them from trying to recover faster. If anything, this is proof of the concerns from others (that their admin ridicules by calling them “concern trolls”) are valid. They are effectively trying to drill the need to dwell on a bad relationship into people’s heads. They don’t want people to get better as soon as possible.
Still wanting for an apology or acquiescence, the member’s tone changes quickly.
The member making that accusation also wrote the gems below. How does the term gaslighting even apply to that quote? It’s basically an attempt to find a familiarly-sounding “crime” to pin on the comrade who was undermining the PF revolution with contrary views.
That about sums it up (the attitude on PF). Notice how polite he was trying to be, while still maintaining his point of view. His politeness was met with disbelief and as a personal attack.
He obviously had a healthy view on taking one’s life back, meaning stopping the toxic, consuming rumination. Taking one’s life back is impossible without taking one’s mind back. But that’s not allowed on PF; one is never supposed to be better off than the average member, who still ruminates daily. ”I want to get better quickly” is seen as ‘‘ you shouldn’t be ruminating for this length of time”, directed at them, which is visibly a touchy subject since it makes members so angry instantly.
Subsequently, the thread disappeared into the big nowhere.
Like I said, I had just stumbled in there intending to spend no more than a minute, after not visiting the site for weeks. Who knows how often this actually happens; it’s all erased within hours and members carry on, pretending not to see the nastiness.
Hence… so much for open dialogue, self-discovery and whatever PR speech their admin was giving.
If you register on PF with an open mind and heart, chances are this will happen to you. In fact, it is very common for members to be banned on the first day, after just a few posts.
Note: I am attaching this here to avoid writing yet another blog post about Psychopath Free.
Recently, the interest in speaking out regarding the recovery forum phenomenon has grown, former members seeking to expose it for what it is, namely emotional quackery.
This YouTube video describes it as a mental trap, as many former members have before. The interest in this blog is also growing, judging by the traffic increase, most of it via Facebook (where I don’t have an account so I can’t tell what’s going on). As they spread their propaganda, the importance of shedding some light on matters is significant in environments which constitute rich recruitment pools for them.
I was thinking recently of the amount of information such forums obtain on individuals who are desperate for a friendly ear or for an explanation they cannot realistically obtain from external sources – much like people being approached by quacks in their hour of need, with a miraculous solution for their health problems. This site saved my life, a common expression of gratitude from enthusiastic new members, indicates that some people are literally desperate when they land there.
Today, privacy is a frequently used word, when the reality behind it has almost disappeared. However, one is rarely willing to allow complete strangers full access into their lives, bedroom included.
You have a social life – work, acquaintances, hobbies; people in it only see what you consider safe for the public eye. The you have a private life, populated by family and close friends, who know more about you but not necessarily everything.The rest, you save for those you trust the most.
If you don’t hold back at all it’s normally before a therapist, life coach , a priest you genuinely trust etc. And they all have a few things in common: actual knowledge regarding people, experience with others and most importantly, a policy of confidentiality. Moreover, they have accountability. At least you know who they are.
Think about what you’re giving access to on forums such as PF.
- Information regarding your family, legal status, children, custody case, other details with legal ramifications.
- The most problematic relationships in your life.
- Your current and overall mental health and emotional state.
- Information regarding your hobbies, habits, preferences, political views, spiritual views etc, down to what you do on a daily basis.
- Detailed accounts of your most painful memories (all types of abuse), some of which you are most likely revealing for the first time.
- Detailed accounts of your childhood memories, with an openness to be analysed by others in that sense, to be told how past traumas have affected you.
- Information regarding your vices, affairs, addictions, phobias and deepest insecurities – which they can use against you later.
- Information regarding your sex life, past and present.
Basically, all your defences are down. Anything you would normally keep from public view is now in their database. Forever.
On top of that, according to former members with inside knowledge, here is what they can find without your permission, using their forum software, your digital footprint as well as other data you automatically provide when posting:
- Your Facebook profile (though I’m not sure to what extent) and at least the amount of information which is public by default;
- Other social media profiles, including on other forums, where you thought you were posting anonymously;
- Your internet browsing, apparently;
- Private messages you send to other members.
Obviously, most people would not agree to that invasion of privacy by any group or institution.
But they would agree even less when learning the PF team accesses all this data in order to determine if you are a danger to the forum and potentially a psychopath yourself. So basically, people who usually clutch at straws to prove others are “evil” and disordered have full access to who you are, who your family is and maybe even where you work. I wonder what’s wrong with this picture ….
YET ANOTHER EDIT 🙂
Some people might argue psychology and psychiatry are dodgy in terms of credibility, since they rely on speculation instead of measurable data. But there are certain things you’re not likely to ever hear when turning to a professional, this being one of them:
Granted this person seemed annoyed and quite hostile – however, when starting a community for those who are in emotional distress one should expect some members to be hyper-vigilant and have a difficult attitude. Tact is part of the difference between those who have studied human behaviour for a good few years and those who base their expert status on thin air. Whatever the approach of a professional is when hitting a brick wall, so to speak, I bet it’s nothing like the paragraph pasted above, or the one below, addressed to the same new member.
Not to say that people on forums should put up with any type of attitude; however, the niche they have selected basically implies that some new members will be in a bad place emotionally and even psychologically. So whilst no one is obligated to show endless patience, it surely doesn’t help for them to be called nasty, horrible and vile (the OP ended up with a couple of those labels after being banned), following only a short exchange of replies. The hostility they perceive from the world at large must increase dramatically.
The team shows no worries at all about the high potential of attracting people who are in a troubled state to the forum, to be swiftly booted; they don’t seem to wonder what can happen as a result.
Also, one is expected not only to have the perfect composure at all times, but to give advice to others (their self-involvement being a red flag according to their main admin), unless they have fallen out of grace by breaking “no contact”, which is when they are unworthy, as they are – try not to spill your coffee when reading this – “projecting a false image that is affecting other members”. I wonder who is really projecting here…
That, by the way, was in response to members complaining that others were allowed to keep their “no contact” time intact although they had resumed contact at some point. The mere fact that they feel righteous indignation regarding other people’s lives and want others to be “stripped of their badge”, so to speak, says a lot about what they’re really doing there in the first place.
Examples could go on an on, but surely these are enough to provide a glimpse into the overall atmosphere unsuspecting people find there.
And in case some members or staff members ever wonder what gives me the right to post these screen shots here and comment on them, well, it’s the same “entity” or concept giving them the right to hold other people’s information captive, to hunt for thought crimes in their history and hold witch trials for all to see, indulging freely in all types of language and speculation. If they can do it, so can others.
17 COMMENTS
Stefan
A perfect example for PF-group bullying:
https://www.psychopathfree.com/showthread.php?40890-borderlines-not-allowed-really
OCTOBER 9, 2015
Maria
Thank you for that.You might have caught this just in time before it is deleted and the atmosphere on PF reverts to that of undisturbed harmony (read fear).
OCTOBER 9, 2015
Maria
I just checked and the thread has been moved or deleted; one cannot access it unless they log in. That’s when the real viciousness starts I suppose. It took them a good few hours.
OCTOBER 9, 2015
Maria
At first I was too busy taking print-screens before the whole thread disappeared, but after reading it… wow, that is some sick stuff! A lot of it paranoid, hateful, out of thin air, though the member was trying to be polite and meet them halfway with a detailed explanation. Surely healthy people don’t react that way. As it will likely be moved or deleted, I’ll post a few quotes which are truly awful:” This site has helped me beyond belief. Without it I don’t know if I could go on. This site is a safe place for people to go and seek help. That’s why there are rules to keep it safe. Not sure what your hostility is towards this site…but I personally feel your making it feel unsafe!”
”I am not in the mood to molly coddle.
So, in answer to the question that you posed in the title of your thread: Yes. REALLY.
But, thanks for the excelempory sample of the toxicity of a cluster B disorder.
Now, go back to your little BPD group and leave my friends alone.””You triggered me I kept looking through your posts thinking could it be my NP. I’m not going to speak for anyone else but I’m not in a good mind frame right now and you violated our safe place tonight.”
All this for asking why people diagnosed with BPD are not accepted on the forum. And then this:
”Even if you were defending yourself and a group with a supposed stigma, the fact remains that PF can’t and won’t deal with the emotional fallout. To repeat: we are not professionals.”
They seem more than happy for people who are obviously not well to make an issue of life and death out of PF, as long as they praise it.
That doesn’t seem to scare them at all, nor does the emotional fallout of banning some members who rely on the forum in that manner.
OCTOBER 9, 2015
Stefan
Another strange example from PF:https://www.psychopathfree.com/showthread.php?41265-Another-disordered-person-sigh
You get banned from PF for admitting that you have BPD. Let’s see what happens with this thread-starter, who calls her(?)self antisocial and describes quite antisocial traits of herself in the thread.
My opinion: If you are in need of a ONS, go to nightclub and find someone who has the same intentions and who is not someone, who crosses your ways on an everyday basis. But when you start hanging out with your neighbour, when you call this a friendship and you start having sex with your neighbour, you walk on a total different ground. And there is no way to call your neighbour disordered, just because he starts to develop deeper emotions and falls in love with you. This is how romantic relationship sometimes begin.
OCTOBER 16, 2015
Maria
It just goes to show that most of what is described on that forum (aside from the violence) is normal to an extent; we all go through so many things in life and respond differently to every situation, sometimes even in manners which seem out of character to us. That’s why it’s important to recognise that every individual has potential to do good and harm to any imaginable degree, and not constrict our understanding of people to a narrow system such as the one on PF.The link you posted is a great example of how that paradigm adds to the anxiety people feel, needfully judging themselves and others according to those made-up guidelines. It’s really sad.
OCTOBER 17, 2015
Maria
Lately I’ve been thinking about the high possibility of these comments being classed as needlessly judgmental; from my point of view they are not. Of course there is some anxiety at the thought of the reactions they might provoke, if the mere presence of an unwanted member on PF was seen as a ”violation of members’ safe space”.The intention behind this blog was never (and will never be) to mock people’s stories or their vulnerability. Personally, I don’t judge anyone for embracing a made-up belief system about human interaction. It’s about exposing the danger the site poses to the unsuspecting, who are, to start with, blissfully unaware of its true dynamics.
There have been quite a few visitors recently through Facebook; since I don’t have an account there I am not aware of the context the link was posted in; hopefully a positive one.
OCTOBER 28, 2015
Maria
Last night, after weeks of forgetting about PF, I paid a short visit out of curiosity. Coincidentally – unless this is a daily occurrence – they were just starting to tear into someone for saying that it’s preferable for the ex of a psychopath to move on with life as soon as possible. The issue went vile faster than I thought and a few short hours later the thread was gone (presumably moved to the Meta forum).I can’t post any images here as that would be disrespectful to the targeted member and unethical. But among other things, he was called arrogant, ignorant and an ”asshat”, whatever that means, by an older, very active member.
Basically, his initial crime was referring to the tendency of thinking about the ex as ”our own obsession” and using that as a thread title. From then on, it all went tits-up. Half of the focus was shifted from his problem to him having implied more survivors shared that obsession. He was basically told off in every sense – starting to date again too early, expecting to recover too early (the older member sounded like a superior schooling a trainee on how it’s done and how long it usually takes). After pitching the book, of course, which is often the first thing members are greeted with. he was even told that survivors can be toxic to others if they start dating too early.
So there you go; you look for advice and companionship and suddenly you’re potentially toxic, ignorant and an ”asshat”, though you express yourself very politely. It’s beyond words, really. This is the support they provide. And of course the moderator was on the persecuting side and soon moved the thread.
Despite repeatedly clarifying that he hadn’t meant any offence, the older member responded with ire, if not hysteria (indignation, disbelief) to the opinion that it isn’t beneficial for people to brood over their experience for too long. She took it as a personal attack though it clearly wasn’t, and started spouting insults. I trust the new member will soon be banned or will leave of his own free will, after being put through that.
And while this is going on, their following grows and grows.
Later edit: I did add the images to the post, editing out specific information such as usernames and avatars. This is a very good example of what goes on there.
DECEMBER 9, 2015
Maria
It’s clear to me that PF is a surreal experience for many, like innocently walking into a church to find it’s a front for a drug cartel or something. It’s something you need to witness to believe; otherwise it’s hard to understand why a group would congregate on an internet forum constantly promoting empathy, peace and harmony while having the mindset shown in that conversation. It boggles the mind. For those who are selling their material the use of the forum is logical, but there are plenty who don’t get money out of it. They just enjoy bullying others, I guess.
DECEMBER 14, 2015
Maria
You’re right; it does seem like some members might have issues which make them hyper-vigilant; unfortunately; I am acquainted with that state of mind and living with it constantly must be very difficult.Regardless, they should not be able to misrepresent themselves and draw others into that situation, especially due to the privacy issue. Perhaps if the whole encounter were truly anonymous, former members would forget about it more easily. But when they find out how their information is being used, that they are tracked, spied on and mocked ”backstage”, anxiety is justified.
In terms of accountability, when it comes to PF, I would start with the people who approved their nonprofit status. I have to wonder what type of analysis they carried out.
In terms of accountability in general, I assume it should depend on how much harm the person in question is causing (or able to cause) others. One can try to understand or tolerate nasty behaviour if only a few words are involved or if cutting all contact and forgetting about it is possible.
In this case, these people (some of whom might be unwell) have access to others’ private information, down to house addresses, which makes the situation potentially dangerous. When that happens, my guess is it’s time for a third party (an authority of some sort) to intervene.
DECEMBER 14, 2015
Stefan
There’s one thing you’ll never see on PF: Someone tells his story and asks, if his/her ex was a psychopath and another member says “No!” It’s an unwritten rule on PF, that everyone, who joins the forum, is a victim of a psychopath. Look at the “Top 10 Frequently Asked Questions about Relationships with Psychopaths & Narcissists” – https://www.psychopathfree.com/content.php?324-Top-10-Frequently-Asked-Questions-about-Relationships-with-Psychopaths-NarcissistsQuestion 1 is: “1. Is he / she really a psychopath? What if I’m just saying that to make myself feel better about my breakup?”
The FAQ doesn’t answer the question, it just says “He/she really was a psychopath, don’t worry about yourself”:
“During the early stages of recovery, this question will repeat itself, over and over again. So don’t fear, it’s completely normal! You’re so accustomed to absorbing the blame for everything that you find it difficult—almost impossible—to place the blame where it actually belongs.”
How to start a cult? Tell people what they want to hear. On PF every broken heart is broken by a psychopath. And everyone with a broken heart is an empathic and good person. We are broken hearted, so we are the good ones. We should rule the world. Is it really as simple as that?
DECEMBER 15, 2015
Maria
My point exactly. I never saw any middle ground, just the advice to head for the hills asap. Some long term members did admit the possibility of a discussed ex not being an actual psychopath, but they agreed, like a choir, that the person was toxic and the new member had to run like hell.Perhaps they believe in their identification guidelines, being sure that whoever reads them and relates to them has encountered a real psychopath, although they must know there is little basis in those guidelines and they have been criticised by reviewers with a background in studying personality disorders as shallow (you can see some reviews on Amazon).
It is cult-like in so many ways. Members invest so much in the idea that they are special snowflakes, better than the majority of the Earth’s population.
I wonder what would happen if two former partners registered as new members and each described the other as disordered, listing the other’s genuine mistakes. They would each be told they are immaculate and their ex is a psycho. Forum members, as well as the team, are clueless.
DECEMBER 16, 2015
Stefan
“Audiatur et altera pars!” – “Listen to the other side!” is an old principle of justice. You don’t hear the other side on PF, but they judge people and call them psychopaths because they heard one side of the story. And the whole forum is based on Peace’s side of his story.The funny thing is – one thing you learn about psychopaths on PF is, that the psychopath will tell you sob stories about their former partners. And what do you see, when you enter the forum? Sob stories about former partners.
Another thing you learn about psychopaths is, that the psychopath mirrors you, to be exactly the person, you want him to be. Do you know another place in the internet, that mirrors the needs of discarded and abandoned lovers more than PF?
The next thing you learn about psychopaths is: They isolate you. “Be careful to make friends with other members on PF!”
“This is a safe place, but please be stay paranoid. Let us control the rest.”
They talk a lot about “The Walking Dead” on PF – but nobody sees that they’re ended up in Terminus to be virtually butchered.
DECEMBER 16, 2015
Stefan
Another example from PF:(Quote removed)
To circle around someone you have hurt and wimp out in some situations is not a sign of psychopathy. It’s a sign of fear – and psychopaths don’t feel this way, they have no fear.
JANUARY 2, 2016
Maria
Stefan, I really hope you don’t get annoyed about this but I don’t think it’s right to directly post people’s stories on this site; they are innocently posting there after all and don’t expect third parties to use their information. It’s not a case of PF-like Nazism, just respecting the intended privacy of a total stranger. Obviously, posting your story anywhere on the internet gives wide access to it, but I’m sure that is not the intention of those who seek help there.I know I’ve pasted screen shots before but only to demonstrate the team’s behaviour, using posts which were relevant to that and avoiding the exposure no member had consented to.
Of course, I agree with you that the guidelines they provide are so broad and vague almost anyone going through a break-up can end up believing they fit the narrative, and that only adds to people’s anxiety needlessly.
JANUARY 2, 2016
Ex PF user
Hello.Awesome post!
The best thing I ever did was walk away from PF and embark on a course of intensive EMDR sessions with a qualified therapist. I would seriously urge all abuse survivors to do the same, and also to try and not become too hung up on the semantics of “was (s)he a psychopath? A sociopath? Or a malignant narcissist?”. It truly doesn’t matter. All that matters is that you were abused, and that you must seek professional support.
What always struck me as very strange is the way that ALL the PF users spoke the same way, used the same jargon, and provided the same types of answers to all questions. Within weeks, I was speaking the same way as the rest of them. It’s unnerving, to say the least.
JANUARY 20, 2016
Maria
Hi, thank you for commenting and sorry for the delay in your comment becoming visible; I had stopped checking for a while.
JANUARY 20, 2016
The Artistry Of Glorified Bullshit 